Discussion :

[ita_guy]

Hi,
i'm italian guy, i don't know the french, so i'm writing in English. I think this forum can help me solve doubts.
I'm an engineer of telecommunications with 5 years of experience about.
Alten contact me for a job offer (now only interview, i'm waiting feedback) like consultant in Amadeus in Sophia Antipolis pole. I've read many negative review about Alten, absent managers and lower salary. he speaks about a package salary (including food ticket and bus ticket for amount 13€ a day about).
My doubt is about the amount i've request, I can not decide appropriate salary and as far as I can push. I've read that less than 40K a year isn't a good offer to live there, also considering that from the 40K all benefits of the package must be removed and therefore the monthly net is low.
Can you help me please?

Thank you.

kings regards.

[el_slapper]

Several topics there.

(1) Alten is a "SSII" or "ESN", also called "meat merchant" in the jargon, or yet consulting firm. The only contact you'll have with them if you sign will be your paycheck. And maybe a yearly meeting about why you don't get a payraise. All consutling firms beyond a certain size are like that in France. I didn't have any problem with that the 14 years I worked for meat merchants, but some people don't like it.

(2) Amadeus is a customer that shines on a resume. Probably the best part.

(3) Sophia-Antipolis is as costly as Paris to live in. Far costlier than anywhere else in France (but a sunny, nice region to live in). Packages is a shiny thing that does not mean much. For your profile, 40K "brut" (i.e.) not counting the package would be a little bit low, 42-44K would be more normal. If the 40K include the "package", then it's clearly not enough for 5 years of experience. Most of the package is actually mandatory to pay anyways, that's why only the "brut" should be counted. That's a price for Marseille or Montpellier, not Sophia-Antipolis.

BTW, to know how much you'll get at the end of the month, divide the "brut" by the number of months(paying 13 months is common, you'll get hte 13rd in December. Some firms even make 13.5 or 14 months, be careful), and multiply the result by 0.77%. And there you have your "mensuel net", the money that actually lands on your bank account every month. And you can't find a flat to rent that cost you more than 33% than this per month('cause insurance companies want this ratio).

Let's assume it's 37K + package, in fact. and paid for 13 months. 37*0.77/13 = 2191 Euros per month. You can't take a flat that costs more than 730 euros per month. Now look in Antibes, Cannes, Mougins or the area, and try to see what you can get for that price, and if it fits your standard. If you can't imagine living in something that small, you've got your answer. A quick look tells me you won't get better than a large student's flat, in this price zone.

(4) Details about the package : it is mandatory in France for the employer to pay 1/2 of your transit fees(I do pay 470€ yearly here in Montpellier, my firm pays 235€ back, one twelth every month), and to pay a share of the meal(around 4-5 €uros per worked day, count around 217 days per year). Consulting firms tend to push on that and go beyond in packages for fiscal reasons, which is a trap for several reasons. First, you don't pay for your pension & joblessness insurance on that money. second, comparisons on salaries are always done on simple "brut", without those mandatory perks. Hence the full package always sound better than it really is. When I say you should aim for 42K-44K, it's before package. 44K would give you a rent budget of 940 monthly, much more comfortable(but still limited, probably no more than 35 square meters if you look in the center of Cannes).

[ita_guy]

Thank you so much for the answer, you're so clear.
So, according to you, i have to request at least 44K gross yearly excluding the "benefit" of the packet.
For me it's not a problem to live in a small apartment, I would like to look above all at the salary. With 44K my net monthly (13months) it should be 2600€ net
according your calculation. Are there other taxes to pay on this? I know that in France 1 time a year i have to pay a fee of the same amount of salary approx.

Thank you.

[el_slapper]

Thank you so much for the answer, you're so clear.
So, according to you, i have to request at least 44K gross yearly excluding the "benefit" of the packet.
For me it's not a problem to live in a small apartment, I would like to look above all at the salary. With 44K my net monthly (13months) it should be 2600€ net
according your calculation. Are there other taxes to pay on this? I know that in France 1 time a year i have to pay a fee of the same amount of salary approx.

Thank you.

Other taxes are tougher to calculate.

There would be mainly the income tax and the local tax.(plus small ones like the waste disposal tax).

At your level of income, the income tax may be harsh if you are single(around 5 000/6 000€ yearly), far lighter if you have wife and children(let's say one other adult and two children to take care of), you'd pay 400/500€, in this level of income. To make things even more complex, from 2019, the income tax will be paid directly by the employer, while today in 2018 you still have to pay it afterwards. I'm not sure yet how the transition to this more modern system will happen(France enters the 20th century, yeah!). Note : I did use this simulator : http://impotsurlerevenu.org/simulate...impot-2018.php

The local tax is highly dependant on the city you live in, and is nearly impossible to forecast. Probably between 600& 2000€, depending on the city. This area is expecially costly, so I wouldn't be surprised to see 4 digits there.

All other things to pay are either included on the "brut"(i.e. in addition to what you get, your company pays for the health care, both public and private, the joblessness insurance, and the pension), or paid through the VTA(20% on most products).

For the salary, anywhere else(and anywhere not Paris) I would say to ask less. But Sophia is too costly to accept province salaries. Try to ask 44-45 to get at least 42, not counting the package.

[ita_guy]

hello and thanks again.
You definitely frightened me.
"Impôt sur le Revenu" 5,000-6,000 euros a year and "taxe d'habitation" can also reach 2000 euros a year.
So if they were to give me positive feedback and then get me an economic offer, i try to ask on 42K excluding the benefits of the package.
If I have other doubts I'll write here since you've been so kind to answer me.

Thanks so much

[Carhiboux]

Hi there,

ministry of economy offers some simulators to estimate the taxes :

=> Income tax/ Impot sur le revenu : el_slapper estimate was a bit high. Maybe he forgot that income tax is calculated on the "salaire net imposable" and not on the "salaire brut". Be carefull the "salaire net imposable" is not the same as the "salaire net" although it is close enough. So, if you have 42k€ BRUT, you'll have around 32240€ in "salaire net". The salaire net imposable is a little higher since it includes some "charges" that are taken from your salary by your company, but still counts in the calculations. So lets assume the "salaire net imposabe" would be somewhere around 33 400 euros. Given this simulator : https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulate...ifie/index.htm you'd have around 3300euros of tax income (given you are single and have no other income source).

=> For the "taxe d'habitation", there is also a simulator, but i won't try to give you any numbers since it changes a lot given where you live, the surface, ... But you can give it a try here : https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/8...nce-principale. This tax should disapear for most people in three years time... but who will still pay it is still unclear!

Good luck!

[Mat.M]

"Impôt sur le Revenu" 5,000-6,000 euros a year and "taxe d'habitation" can also reach 2000 euros a year.

Hi ita_guy scuzzi ma non parlo molto italiano, I strongly doubt that you will pay 2000euros for "taxe d'habitation" unless you pay for high rent for housing.
You should rather concentrate in your integration into the Alten company
In France it is badly considered to speak money , it is a particularity of the French culture.
I would recommend to not to speak about salary or money unless the recruiter leads you to deal about this subject.
But I think this is the same in the Italian culture because Italian and French culture are very similar

[Carhiboux]

In France it is badly considered to speak money , it is a particularity of the French culture.
I would recommend to not to speak about salary or money unless the recruiter leads you to deal about this subject.

Not our problem if SS2I have problems when it comes to money. It is not a taboo question. If the wage is too low, why would you go on 4 interviews before knowing it?

[ita_guy]

Hi there,

ministry of economy offers some simulators to estimate the taxes :

=> Income tax/ Impot sur le revenu : el_slapper estimate was a bit high. Maybe he forgot that income tax is calculated on the "salaire net imposable" and not on the "salaire brut". Be carefull the "salaire net imposable" is not the same as the "salaire net" although it is close enough. So, if you have 42k€ BRUT, you'll have around 32240€ in "salaire net". The salaire net imposable is a little higher since it includes some "charges" that are taken from your salary by your company, but still counts in the calculations. So lets assume the "salaire net imposabe" would be somewhere around 33 400 euros. Given this simulator : https://www3.impots.gouv.fr/simulate...ifie/index.htm you'd have around 3300euros of tax income (given you are single and have no other income source).

=> For the "taxe d'habitation", there is also a simulator, but i won't try to give you any numbers since it changes a lot given where you live, the surface, ... But you can give it a try here : https://www.impots.gouv.fr/portail/8...nce-principale. This tax should disapear for most people in three years time... but who will still pay it is still unclear!

Good luck!

Good, i've to try these simulators. 3300€ tax on revenue is not low but accetable.
Thanks a lot for the help, i hope to receive a feedback from alten/amadeus.

[ita_guy]

Hi ita_guy scuzzi ma non parlo molto italiano, I strongly doubt that you will pay 2000euros for "taxe d'habitation" unless you pay for high rent for housing.
You should rather concentrate in your integration into the Alten company
In France it is badly considered to speak money , it is a particularity of the French culture.
I would recommend to not to speak about salary or money unless the recruiter leads you to deal about this subject.
But I think this is the same in the Italian culture because Italian and French culture are very similar

fortunately they were the ones starting the topic about money but they only gave me some info for now but I wanted to be prepared to negotiate.

Thank you.